19 replies to this topic

[Drackir]

OK. Here I go. I shall attempt to explain the (advanced) basics of what we are thinking for our game as far as the mechanics of it goes. Intelligent comments/criticisms are welcome.

Choosing A Class
When you begin, you will pick one of three classes: Warrior, Mage, or Scout. The difference between classes is that each one has a governing attribute (GA) which, for now, means that they get a bonus when leveling up this attribute. (Note: It is more of a penalty for leveling up the other two main attributes than a bonus for the GA.) Let's say you picked the Warrior class for your character. Since Strength(Str) is a Warrior's GA, you would gain a boost for initial Strength(Str) and a penalty for inital Dexterity(Dex) and Intelligence(Int). Even though your GA is Str, you can still level up your Dex and Int but you will have a penalty on the experience(exp) for these levels. This means they will be harder to level up (not to mention that you will start very low with them at the beginning.)

Increasing An Attribute
Attributes such as Str, Defense(Def), Dex and Int each have their own exp points. This means that in order to increase each attribute you will actually have to use that attribute. For instance, a mage will use spells, which require Int. By using spells, that mage's Int exp will increase. When it reaches it's maximum, the overall Int will increase. This means that a user will be able to level up other attributes by using other weapons. That mage could use a small sword to train his/her Str. There is one other thing that is taken into account when determining the exp given to each attribute, that is the user's class. As I mentioned above, each class has a GA. That GA will be either Str, Dex, or Int. For whatever the user's GA is, the experience gained for the other two attributes will be stunted. This will allow a warrior to also train to use spells, but never be quite as good as a mage. There will also be certain weapons, spells, bows, etc. that will only be able to be used by a certain class.

Leveling Up
Users will have a certain exp requirement to get to the next level. The actual amount *may* be randomized so that it is not always the same amount for every player at each level.

NPC's
How will monsters work, you ask? Well follow closely cause this will probably make no sense. Here I go...
Each NPC (talking monsters here) will have a Level attribute which will determine who can fight with it. People 5 levels below the monster's level will not be able to fight it. Whereas anyone above that can attack it. To make killing monsters fair, the damage you do, the damage the monster does on you, the monster's HP, etc. will be based on both the monster's level and the player's level. There will also be a bonus for exp if you are within a few levels of the monster's level. This will encourage players to level on monsters in their range in order to get the greatest amount of exp. Weapons will increase the raw power of the user by adding on to how much damage the user would do to the monster w/o anything on.

Partying
What if you are in a party with a level 25, a level 20 and a level 30? Or, since the HP changes based on a character's level, how will this be fair for all levels if they were attacking the same monster? I will use an example to illustrate how it will be done with multiple level characters. You are partied with a level 24, Player2, and you, Player1, are level 27. The monster is level 25. When you attack the monster, it's HP will change to reflect your higher level as well as the damage it does to you and the damage you do to it. If the monster has 500 total HP for your level and would normally only have 400 for Player2 how would it be fair if you were both attacking it? Well it works like this, if Player2 attacks the monster, the maximum amount of HP that it has for your level is divided by the current amount of HP it has. This is then multiplied by the maximum HP that the monster would have for your level, effectively converting the HP between users. Now, how does exp work? Well, that is also based on your level and the monsters level. In general a lower level would get more, a higher level would get less. When partied however the level's of the people in the party are added together and then divided by the number of people in the party, giving the average level of the party. This would then be the level that the exp would be based upon.

OK. I think that sums it all up. Tell me what you guys think. If I forgot anything I'll add it later.

[Nalyid]

umm not sure if this is off topic but will there be a buddy list?

[Drackir]

Eventually, yeah. I'll add it to my todo list. Someone read this and give me some feedback!

[Caseyweederman]

Everything looks sharp...
but I'm having a hard time understanding Partying.
So... Basically the monster is in the eye of the beholder? It changes to match the player's abilities?
Hm... I begin to develop this in my own brain to see if I understand it properly... but maybe go too far.
So there could be certain monsters who are always a challenge, no matter what level the player is, but at the same time there are monsters that are always simple and easy to destroy. Well, if that is so, then the replay value just hit the roof, because there are always areas of the game that are challenging.
Basically, you could represent the monster statistics just as relative values to the player with whom it is active.
Ahh! And different areas of experience (Strength, Dexterety, Intellect) can vary, just as much as players can with the GA and all, allowing for negative values also, but still in range with the player's.

Example: Twisted Snake (monster)


HP(of monster) = HP(of user)+12
STR(of monster) = STR(of user)-6
DEX(of monster) = DEX(of user)+5
INT(of monster) = INT(of user)+2
(of course, I would insist a minor randomization at beginning of battle, affecting all the final skills of the monster by some small amounts)


Thus, at each round the monster is in active combat with a player, that monster is at a difficulty level unique to that player. Hm... However... To balance this, I believe the players in a party should have an overall advantage for each player taking part, otherwise what's the point? So. Back to our example.

HP(of monster) = HP(of user)+12(-0.2 for each player in party)
STR(of monster) = STR(of user)-6(-0.5 for each player in party)
DEX(of monster) = DEX(of user)+5(-0.8 for each player in party)
INT(of monster) = INT(of user)+2(-0.5 for each player in party)



Wow, I'm getting really attached to this idea, even if it has nothing to do with what you were talking about. It simplifies so many things, such as individual creature placement, individual creature statistics, levels, quests, and keeping the game challenging and fresh.
Of course, there should occasionally be monsters that are completely out of the range of any player no matter what the level, requiring great acts of heroism and sacrifice. Perhaps even individual creatures that are totally overpowering except when attacked with a party, encouraging cooperation and community?
Hm... This has been, Feedback with Casey. Thank you for joining us today, and tune in next time for Casey, the documentary. Has he finally cracked?

[Drackir]

Basically the monster is in the eye of the beholder? It changes to match the player's abilities?

Yes.

you could represent the monster statistics just as relative values to the player with whom it is active.

This is what I was talking about. But when partying, the player's levels may not all be the same. So to compensate, I figured out that when each character attacks the monster, it will check their stats compared to what the monster currently has, take the percentage of current and multiply it by maximum of the new user.

Usually, the advantage of a party is that you kill monsters at a faster rate and that you get a greater share of exp overall. For example,
P1 and P2 are in a party and P3 is not. P3 is killing the monsters around him and getting say 100 exp. P1 and P2 are killing the same monsters two at a time(basically) but getting 66 exp. So overall, when partying P1 and P2 get 132 exp in the time it takes P3 to get 100 exp.

[Caseyweederman]

Right, I just thought that if the statistics are to be relative during "party" battles, why not have them relative all the time? And instead of the monsters having any unique properties (ever), they'd just have values relative the player. To continue the example, Twisted Snake would always have 12 more health than every player when that player is in active battle.

Just looking at the HP and none of the other attributes:
Twisted Snake has +12 HP. Player one attacks, and enters active battle. Player one has a max HP of 50. Thus, in this battle, the Snake monster has a max HP of 62. The battle ends. Another Twisted Snake attacks Player 2. Player 2 has a max HP of 13. The Snake now has a max HP of ::25::.

For "partying", each activity done to or from the monster and the player, the stats are relative to that player. Uh... yeah.


::edited...School done make the smart stuff go clean out of my head.::

[Drackir]

That is what I was talking about. I was just stating that party battles would have to be handled differently than single person battles because there would be level gaps. And I think you meant 25 as the snake's HP there.

[Caseyweederman]

NPC's
How will monsters work, you ask? Well follow closely cause this will probably make no sense. Here I go...
Each NPC (talking monsters here) will have a Level attribute which will determine who can fight with it. People 5 levels below the monster's level will not be able to fight it. Whereas anyone above that can attack it. To make killing monsters fair, the damage you do, the damage the monster does on you, the monster's HP, etc. will be based on both the monster's level and the player's level. There will also be a bonus for exp if you are within a few levels of the monster's level. This will encourage players to level on monsters in their range in order to get the greatest amount of exp. Weapons will increase the raw power of the user by adding on to how much damage the user would do to the monster w/o anything on.

Somewhat. I meant to explain that in my vision, monsters have no levels except relative to players.

[Drackir]

There is a reason for the levels but I forget it right now. I will update later when I am not tired.

[Azareon]

NPC's
How will monsters work, you ask? Well follow closely cause this will probably make no sense. Here I go...
Each NPC (talking monsters here) will have a Level attribute which will determine who can fight with it. People 5 levels below the monster's level will not be able to fight it. Whereas anyone above that can attack it. To make killing monsters fair, the damage you do, the damage the monster does on you, the monster's HP, etc. will be based on both the monster's level and the player's level. There will also be a bonus for exp if you are within a few levels of the monster's level. This will encourage players to level on monsters in their range in order to get the greatest amount of exp. Weapons will increase the raw power of the user by adding on to how much damage the user would do to the monster w/o anything on.

Somewhat. I meant to explain that in my vision, monsters have no levels except relative to players.

Well, I am not sure I myself undesrtand it correctly, but this is how I understand it.

A monsters toughness and what you get out of that monster depends on how close to that monsters level you are. If you are 5 levels or more below it, you cannot fight it because it would kill you and you would get nothing out of it, but say you are 4 levels below it, it would be hard to kill it, but it would be possible if you were good enough, and the reward for taking such a risk would be great.

As you come closer to the level of the monster, the reward is still good, but it is not as good as it was, the closer you get. And every level you achieve, the monster becomes easier to kill. Eventually you will start getting a higher level than the monster, and instead of the monster having the advantage, you will have the advantage, and because of that, you will have less reward for killing it.

So the monster has a level, but the way I read it is the level is only a statement of how hard that monster is and how well you, at your level, should do.

So, if I were to fight a lvl 5 monster at lvl 1, it would be extremely hard and more than likely I would die, but if I were to win, then I would have a big reward. Now if I were level 9, and I went back and fought that level 5 again, then I will own the crap out of that level 5, but my reward will not be that great. But, the monster will always be level 5, it just means that better you get, the worse the monster is compared to you.

Well, that's how I understand it hehe, dunno if I'm correct on all points though, Iunno. But if this is how it's set up, congratz for an ingenius setup for monster fighting hehe .

[Drackir]

Yeah, that's basically the plan.

[Caseyweederman]

Hm, regarding my main concept: that the players remain ignorant of such game mechanics as experience.

It's the power of mystery. You know things are going on behind the scenes, you just can't see them. It adds a great effectiveness to moment-to-moment gameplay. A life that is hyper-analyzed, broken down into basic mathematics and explained as such is extremely boring and easily tires.

I suppose it plays on the feeling that everybody has, that there is so much more to life than this. It makes the game so very much bigger than it is.

[Pontifus]

That's a good idea if we're going for a role-playing environment. It depends on the kind of player base we want.

[Sensi]

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Increasing An Attribute
Attributes such as Str, Defense(Def), Dex and Int each have their own exp points. This means that in order to increase each attribute you will actually have to use that attribute. For instance, a mage will use spells, which require Int. By using spells, that mage's Int exp will increase. When it reaches it's maximum, the overall Int will increase. This means that a user will be able to level up other attributes by using other weapons. That mage could use a small sword to train his/her Str. There is one other thing that is taken into account when determining the exp given to each attribute, that is the user's class. As I mentioned above, each class has a GA. That GA will be either Str, Dex, or Int. For whatever the user's GA is, the experience gained for the other two attributes will be stunted. This will allow a warrior to also train to use spells, but never be quite as good as a mage. There will also be certain weapons, spells, bows, etc. that will only be able to be used by a certain class.

This is an interesting way of doing it, however it seems to me that this game is going to be mini clones of every charater. All the 'Mages' are going to be the same layout with high Int, and lower str and dex, 'Melees' high str, followed by dex and maybe some int. Seems kind of boring, and this would lack individuals in the game. I always liked when you could make your player different from every other player in the game, an individual. Example: I like to play the magic class, and usually magic class is low health, but do big damage. Well, I like when im given a choice of making my mage a little different. I would try and maybe have a lower int and high speed and hp, making my spells hit softer, but at least I can take a hit, and I can get 2 weaker spells off, in the time a "usuall" mage can get one strong one off.

Suggestion: We could make more seconday stats such as speed, endurence, wisdom, agility, W/e, Letting the players have more options for how they want to raise their char.

[Caseyweederman]

Or go the DnD way and let the player choose where to place experience points at every level up. Forget about classes is what I mean to say. So my character was a half-mage half-knight. He had skills from both, but I got tired and when I leveled up I focused entirely on agility, making him more of an exotic ninja/illusionist, but he was still capable of wielding a broadsword. The required skills are all fairly balanced, but because of that, the total number of experience points have been spread out fairly thinly and any one attribute that a character which has focused on that attribute will outweigh.

On the other hand, my second character was a dumb orc with the absolute minimum of everything except for hp. He can last for a stupidly long time in battle, but he misses frequently and hardly deals any damage. It's ok, though, as he'll be alive longer than the oponent.

Etc. Up to the player.

[Drackir]

Well with this kind of skill system, you can have a mage who also can use a sword and shield. You just have to train up the str/def. Your class basically just determines what stats are easy/hard to level and gives you bonus' on some stats. Also, I want to move away from the "level 45 always beats a level 44" type of game.
I should also mention that the stats currently in the game are Strength, Defense, Agility, Dexterity, Wisdom and Intelligence. There is also the basic HP/MP/Speed stats that will probably work on a level/points system. I may eventually add trade skills but for now we are only making plans for them for the next game.

[Caseyweederman]

Hah, I remember a Runescape trick. You level up ONLY Strength (or something) and absolutely nothing else for the combat stat category. You then appear as, say, level 20 when you have the strength of a level 90. Easier to lure players into attacking you, or something. Then you destroy them.

[rickoshay818]

ha lol. I thought there were no cheats in runescape.

[Caseyweederman]

There is the mentioned skewed level measurement trick.
It is truthfully completely legitimate. It's not a hack or a cheat or a glitch or anything, it's just the way the game measures your combat level.
It can be very useful, however, when applied to player vs. player gameplay. Again, perfectly legitimate, it's just a sneaky way of tricking other players.
"Oh look, it's a sucky level 20 here in the wilderness! I'm gonna kill 'im!"
Thus, you are not the instigator of the battle, plus you completely demolish them. You don't get that annoying skull over your head that means that you drop all your items when you die.

How did it work? You kept the top three most valuable items if you died, but not if you attacked the other player. Then you lose it all.

[rickoshay818]

I think its when you have the skull you lose all items but the three most valuable three but if you don't then you lose like 1. I'm pretty sure.